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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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Shane |
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Registered: March 14, 2007 | Posts: 1,777 |
| Posted: | | | | I gotta agree. I was willing to give up Jack Palance if it meant getting rid of that load of shiitake mushroom "uncredited" list. Frankly, I'd love to go through the entire database and clean it up. I'd be surprised if we can actually document more than 10% of the uncredited entries spewed throughout the various profiles. |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Posts: 2,694 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting richierich: Quote: The key for me is whether John would vote no if another user subsequently did an audit on the title and used the 'credited as' feature, assuming his original audit is accepted? My understanding of John's position would be that he would vote neutral. IMO John has not done anything incorrect, the credit was wrong in the database in the first place. He is not removing a 'credited as' listing. Another user can simply add this 'credited as' listing at a later stage.
Whether there are other reasons in the audit to vote no, that is an entirely different subject. I have never voted no on such a change as long as it is properly documented, although I usually do vote neutral in such cases. If and when Ken comes up with a reliable, fair, impartial way of assigning common names I will use it without a problem. That hasn't happened yet. | | | John
"Extremism in the defense of Liberty is no vice!" Senator Barry Goldwater, 1964 Make America Great Again! |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Posts: 813 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Rifter: Quote: All that uncredited stuff is BS and you know it. It's a goddamn travesty to have 12 cast members that appear in the credits and then hang twice that many uncredited entries on it. The previous profiles did not document those entries, and the cast list on IMDB is close enough to what I removed that typos could account for the differences. In any case, it isn't the exact letter by letter, mark by mark stuff that counts, its the layout, the spelling, the order, the phraseology, and so on. Any reasonable person can see that those entries came straight from IMDB or one of its clones. Hmmm, not sure that was Ken's take on it... I think it was pretty clear about exact copies. But, go ahead and force your personal preference on the database, just like the change of roles names to your preference. And their spelling from another third party source. | | | Andy
"Credited as" Names Database |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Posts: 2,694 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Lopek: Quote: Quoting Rifter:
Quote: All that uncredited stuff is BS and you know it. It's a goddamn travesty to have 12 cast members that appear in the credits and then hang twice that many uncredited entries on it. The previous profiles did not document those entries, and the cast list on IMDB is close enough to what I removed that typos could account for the differences. In any case, it isn't the exact letter by letter, mark by mark stuff that counts, its the layout, the spelling, the order, the phraseology, and so on. Any reasonable person can see that those entries came straight from IMDB or one of its clones. Hmmm, not sure that was Ken's take on it... I think it was pretty clear about exact copies.
But, go ahead and force your personal preference on the database, just like the change of roles names to your preference. And their spelling from another third party source. That's another damn lie. I watched the movie and got the names that I didn't remember. I saw this movie when it was first out and many, many times since then. | | | John
"Extremism in the defense of Liberty is no vice!" Senator Barry Goldwater, 1964 Make America Great Again! |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 2,372 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting BYATES1: Quote: This was all I could find about Ken addressing the issue.
Quoting Ken Cole:
Quote:
When I considered options for resolving name linking issues due to variations in how cast and crew are credited, there were two main candidates - the credited as system in use today, and a linking system. Linking works well with name variations but doesn't work well with one-off credits, and complicates the birth year solution to credit uniqueness. On the other hand, the credited as solution requires consistency in the common name to work well.
There seems to be much duress over determining the "correct" common name for each cast/crew member, when in fact what is needed is merely consistency. I've prepared an online lookup that will allow searching the global cast and crew databases to determine the more common credited as name. Note that whether or not credited as field is currently used as intended, the lookup will remain valid as long as the cast/crew entries follow the credited as standard. Importantly, changing the common name for particular DVDs to align with the most common credited as field will have no effect on the lookup.
Before I roll out the lookup functionality, I want to make sure that this solution is workable to the community. Pick it apart, tear into it, I'm thick skinned.
You just didn't know where to look My Quote from page 1: Quote: Ken himself said a "no vote is not the end of the world" They look at many things. HERE is where Ken said it: Quote:
No votes aren't the end of the world, in fact nowhere near it. Far more important are brief, intelligent notes one way or the other. We also track user accuracy over the long term to help us evaluate contributions and votes. |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 3,436 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Rifter: Quote: All that uncredited stuff is BS and you know it. It's a goddamn travesty to have 12 cast members that appear in the credits and then hang twice that many uncredited entries on it. The previous profiles did not document those entries, and the cast list on IMDB is close enough to what I removed that typos could account for the differences. In any case, it isn't the exact letter by letter, mark by mark stuff that counts, its the layout, the spelling, the order, the phraseology, and so on. Any reasonable person can see that those entries came straight from IMDB or one of its clones. (bold by me)I also did not understand Ken, that he actually just meant "approximate" copy... That would mean, that nearly all uncredited in the onlone database could be eliminated, which is not Ken's target. Also I am unclear what the actually number is, when removal of uncredited entries is o.k. You mention "twice" but where does it start...? And please remind me where that concept was introduced... I either forgot it or missed it. | | | Achim [諾亞信; Ya-Shin//Nuo], a German in Taiwan. Registered: May 29, 2000 (at InterVocative) |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Posts: 813 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Rifter: Quote: That's another damn lie. I watched the movie and got the names that I didn't remember. I saw this movie when it was first out and many, many times since then. What's a "damn lie"? The profile already had role names in there - including surnames, you changed them removing the surnames. How is that not a personal preference thing? Or do you refer to the third party database? You detail it in your notes! What difference does it make if you are an old man who saw this when it came out, or that you have seen it many times? It is irrelevant to the contribution system if you have to see and hear things repeatedly before they sink in? | | | Andy
"Credited as" Names Database |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Posts: 2,694 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Lopek: Quote: Quoting Rifter:
Quote: That's another damn lie. I watched the movie and got the names that I didn't remember. I saw this movie when it was first out and many, many times since then. What's a "damn lie"? The profile already had role names in there - including surnames, you changed them removing the surnames. How is that not a personal preference thing? Or do you refer to the third party database? You detail it in your notes!
What difference does it make if you are an old man who saw this when it came out, or that you have seen it many times? It is irrelevant to the contribution system if you have to see and hear things repeatedly before they sink in? Listen up, you dumb bastard. Watching the movie and noting down the names of the characters as they are referred to is NOT personal preference. Besides, the object is to identify the role, and that was done. Knowing a surname (which comes from the IMDB list by the way) adds nothing to the movie or the characterization. The only reason you are in this at all is to attack me. You never let an opportunity pass to jump me or Skip about something we've said or done, EVER. | | | John
"Extremism in the defense of Liberty is no vice!" Senator Barry Goldwater, 1964 Make America Great Again! |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Posts: 2,694 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting ya_shin: Quote: Quoting Rifter:
Quote: All that uncredited stuff is BS and you know it. It's a goddamn travesty to have 12 cast members that appear in the credits and then hang twice that many uncredited entries on it. The previous profiles did not document those entries, and the cast list on IMDB is close enough to what I removed that typos could account for the differences. In any case, it isn't the exact letter by letter, mark by mark stuff that counts, its the layout, the spelling, the order, the phraseology, and so on. Any reasonable person can see that those entries came straight from IMDB or one of its clones. (bold by me)
I also did not understand Ken, that he actually just meant "approximate" copy... That would mean, that nearly all uncredited in the onlone database could be eliminated, which is not Ken's target.
Also I am unclear what the actually number is, when removal of uncredited entries is o.k. You mention "twice" but where does it start...? And please remind me where that concept was introduced... I either forgot it or missed it. Achim, don't be so damn literal. It's very easy to tell where the list starts. All you have to do is look at the cast list. Start with the first uncredited entry and go down the list to the last. If the names are the same, and the role names are the same, and the descriptions are layed out the same way, with the same type of punctuation, and in the same order as the list of uncredited in IMDB, then they're identical for all intents and purposes. A missed comma, or a spelling error could easily be accounted for by a typo in transcription. I already made the point that I'm not hunting for this stuff, and I'm wasting my time with profiles where there are two or three uncredited entries. I'm talking about blatant data scraping that results in uncredited lists that are usually far in excess of the legitimate credited cast. In this case there was something like a dozen on disc credited cast members, and at least twice that many uncredited tacked on the end, and it was plain as day they were listed right out of IMDB. Only somebody seriously in denial could say otherwise. There was no documentation for any of that stuff. It was clearly carried over from the old database, and is just another example of how people were so damn worried about how many contributions they got into the new database that they didn't care what kind of quality was uploaded. So now, we've thousands of profiles full of junk that should've been cleaned out. I'm a purist when it comes to entering the data EXACTLY - as far as is humanly possible - into the database. I will never allow this sort of pollution if I can help it. | | | John
"Extremism in the defense of Liberty is no vice!" Senator Barry Goldwater, 1964 Make America Great Again! |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Posts: 813 |
| Posted: | | | | I have voted, and contributed to this thread as this title is in my collection, so I have an interest in the profile. You do not have psychic abilities to know why I am here, you do however seem to have a persecution complex - for which you have my sympathies. The list does not match IMDb - I suggest you look again. Most are the same, but the list in DVDP has less people than IMDb. You are making an assumption, and ignoring both the rules and Kens statements in this forum. He was very clear about exact matches - there was nothing about "close enough", "the layout, the spelling, the order, the phraseology" etc. | | | Andy
"Credited as" Names Database |
| Registered: April 7, 2007 | Posts: 357 |
| Posted: | | | | Not having Shane this hardly affects me, but as you say it was carried over from before the need to document sources. Now you HAVE to document to change cast and crew, what have you done to ensure that your removals are correct? Have you at least found headshots for the actors concerned to satisfy yourself that they are not there? If you haven't then your undocumented changes breach the rules You of course know older films were far less generous with credits so long real uncredited lists are not uncommon.
As for being similar to IMDB that doesn't mean that is the source, it may be unrelated or even inspired by which would also be OK. Before you shout if I see that IMDB lists John Smith As John Doe uncredited I can watch the film and obtain that same information for myself. The source would not be IMDB, the source would be the film, IMDB just gave me a clue as to where to look. |
| Registered: March 14, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 1,022 |
| Posted: | | | | | | | | | | Last edited: by hayley taylor |
| Registered: March 24, 2007 | Posts: 179 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting lyonsden5: Quote: Quoting BYATES1:
Quote: This was all I could find about Ken addressing the issue.
Quoting Ken Cole:
Quote:
When I considered options for resolving name linking issues due to variations in how cast and crew are credited, there were two main candidates - the credited as system in use today, and a linking system. Linking works well with name variations but doesn't work well with one-off credits, and complicates the birth year solution to credit uniqueness. On the other hand, the credited as solution requires consistency in the common name to work well.
There seems to be much duress over determining the "correct" common name for each cast/crew member, when in fact what is needed is merely consistency. I've prepared an online lookup that will allow searching the global cast and crew databases to determine the more common credited as name. Note that whether or not credited as field is currently used as intended, the lookup will remain valid as long as the cast/crew entries follow the credited as standard. Importantly, changing the common name for particular DVDs to align with the most common credited as field will have no effect on the lookup.
Before I roll out the lookup functionality, I want to make sure that this solution is workable to the community. Pick it apart, tear into it, I'm thick skinned.
You just didn't know where to look
My Quote from page 1:
Quote: Ken himself said a "no vote is not the end of the world" They look at many things.
HERE is where Ken said it:
Quote:
No votes aren't the end of the world, in fact nowhere near it. Far more important are brief, intelligent notes one way or the other. We also track user accuracy over the long term to help us evaluate contributions and votes.
Rick, I was only talking about "uncredited" and "as credited" specifically in reference to Ken. Not really about yes or no votes per say in this particular post. Your response is correct in reference to my first post in this thread. I jumped the gun a little there. I would swear that he said something about that it was correct to remove any uncredited actors if there was no documentation for the actors in the previous contribution notes. After Having searched the Ken's posts for this I was unable to find the post I thought I remembered. I guess I just feel there should be no issue removing data like this that has not been explained in prior contribution notes. I thought that Rifter's original issue was he should not be required to provide new documentation for old undocumented work by someone else and I agree with him on that point. I think I must be confusing the real issue, sorry. I should have been more clear in my articulation in the second post. | | | Brian |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 13,203 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting BYATES1: Quote: I was only talking about "uncredited" and "as credited" specifically in reference to Ken. Not really about yes or no votes per say in this particular post. Your response is correct in reference to my first post in this thread. I jumped the gun a little there. I would swear that he said something about that it was correct to remove any uncredited actors if there was no documentation for the actors in the previous contribution notes. After Having searched the Ken's posts for this I was unable to find the post I thought I remembered. I guess I just feel there should be no issue removing data like this that has not been explained in prior contribution notes. I thought that Rifter's original issue was he should not be required to provide new documentation for old undocumented work by someone else and I agree with him on that point. I think I must be confusing the real issue, sorry. I should have been more clear in my articulation in the second post. You might be remembering his comment from this thread (only visible if you visit the rules forum). "If you believe the uncredited entries are a carbon copy of a third party source, and the existing contribution note history doesn't supply a source, you may remove them, but are not required to do so." Note he does say 'carbon copy' which, to me, translates to 'exact copy'. So 'similar' is not good enough for me either. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever. There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom. Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand. The Centauri learned this lesson once. We will teach it to them again. Though it take a thousand years, we will be free. - Citizen G'Kar |
| Registered: May 29, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 3,475 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting richierich: Is he looking at your avatar? |
| Registered: March 14, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 17,804 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Rifter: Quote: Quoting Rifter:
Quote: That's another damn lie... Listen up, you dumb bastard...
Rifter, whatever your opinon is, you have the right to express this. But your cadence of insults is hard to tolerate. I do not know whether you are a young boor or an embittered old man. Nevertheless I don't care. But we should all keep a minimum standard of reciprocative respect in these forums. If you are not able to agree to this, please play your games elsewhere and stop your political riots in these forums.
BTW: you cannot insult or flame me; only friends can do that!
SCNR!! | | | Thorsten |
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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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