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Invelos Forums->General: Website Discussion |
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What would it take to "bring you back" to the database? |
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Registered: May 14, 2007 | Posts: 455 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting TheMadMartian: Quote: Quoting leo1963:
Quote: have no idea what the orginial retail covers look like. It's this one. In the case of covers, the screeners have to rely on the votes. If the voters, who own the title, say 'yes', how can the screeners, who don't, say 'no'? OK, I stand corrected. Some of the voters are color blind. |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Posts: 2,692 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting leo1963: Quote: Quoting TheMadMartian:
Quote: Quoting leo1963:
Quote: have no idea what the orginial retail covers look like. It's this one. In the case of covers, the screeners have to rely on the votes. If the voters, who own the title, say 'yes', how can the screeners, who don't, say 'no'?
OK, I stand corrected. Some of the voters are color blind. do we know that the voters actually see a screen showing old/new covers? Perhaps they just see a screen showing votes when covers are submitted? | | | Paul |
| Registered: May 29, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 3,475 |
| Posted: | | | | Cover improvement is in the eye of the beholder...and the computer. I don't think I've ever seen a scan that looks exactly like what I see in person. |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 13,203 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting pauls42: Quote: do we know that the voters actually see a screen showing old/new covers? Perhaps they just see a screen showing votes when covers are submitted? From what I understand, based on things that Ken and Gerri have said, the screeners do see both covers. I remember Geri saying that we should list, in the notes, exactly what the improvements were because, sometimes, unless it was obvious, the screeners didn't always notice the improvement. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever. There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom. Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand. The Centauri learned this lesson once. We will teach it to them again. Though it take a thousand years, we will be free. - Citizen G'Kar |
| Registered: June 15, 2012 | Posts: 428 |
| Posted: | | | | I haven't been using DVDProfiler for that long and as such I do use the database, but I thought I'd add my comment. My ideas are similar to others seen in various places in the forum, but from a "new user" point of view, the most obvious problem with the database is the actual movie information that comes with each UPC entry. I don't understand why each one needs a "copy" of the same details when it's the same movie.
The system really needs to have the movies (or I guess tv shows) in a single entry in the database for information on cast, crew, what it's about etc etc (stuff common to the movie), then each dvd/br release can be in the db with it's own upc and refer to the movie details. It also shouldn't matter if it's a re-release with different artwork. I believe all available releases should be in the db, as long as they have a unique upc. Also the idea of 100x100 dpi scan for cover art..geez. Ok, I have since realised one can scan higher and it will be just scaled down...
As a new user, the above changes would have made my life easier in trying to add my dvd's to DVDProfiler. So many I have done more then once due to just finding out things as I go along, and I am even considering doing the whole lot again with what I have learned since I started with it.
Being not in the USA, most of my titles have different upc's or are re-releases of existing upc's. Being able to pull a central info about the movie in question and apply it to a upc would have made things simpler. I also assume this would also make it simpler for people to correct errors in the db. |
| Registered: March 19, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 6,018 |
| Posted: | | | | @Parsec: One way to make your life easier when you encounter an (R4) release which is not in the database yet, is to " clone" a different profile for the same movie. Just make sure you verify the information with the release you have before contributing it to the database. |
| Registered: June 15, 2012 | Posts: 428 |
| Posted: | | | | @dee1959jay
That was the point of what I was trying to say. When "cloning" another release there are often heaps of them, and a lot have different info about the movie, cast, crew etc etc. This doesn't make sense, it's the same movie. |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 17,334 |
| Posted: | | | | While it may not happen often... there is times when stuff like the cast lists are not the same from one release to another. There has been documented times where the credited name in the film credits is different per release. There is times when the credits are localized... where the roles are changed to the language of the region for the release. Stuff like that makes what you suggest more difficult. I am not saying it is impossible. Or it shouldn't be looked at as an option. Just that it is something Invelos has to have an answer for before going in such a direction. | | | Pete |
| Registered: May 29, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 3,475 |
| Posted: | | | | Although cloning is allowed by invelos, there are those who do not like it and others, like myself, who believe it is a helpful tool. Here's my thoughts from another thread: Quoting Kathy: Quote: Of course, the best source of data is the DVD itself.
But, Ken and invelos allow for data to be cloned from an accepted profile in the invelos database to another profile for contribution.
Invelos has even made this feature easy by letting one copy, past and append directly on the Cast and Crew Edit page. I frequently use this feature as it saves a lot of time and typing.
It has also been my experience that in the vast majority of cases, the credits are exactly the same when I double check the cloned data with the actual credits.
In the rare instances that there are any differences, these can be fixed by the community when it gets to it. Ken even allows for a few mistakes if the majority of a profile is correct.
On a rare occasion I have found a contributor has lied about where they got their data from. For example I have seen contribution notes stating data was taken from the DVD credits but were actually taken verbatim from IMDb.
This, in my opinion, is the issue that compromises the contribution process and the database accuracy more than any other, including cloning.
Of course an occasional mistake happens, but most people are honest and they actually check the data that they are contributing. And, since invelos does allow cloning, I am confident that most, if not all of the data I have copied is legitimate.
In order to make this process even a little more accurate, there are a couple of things I do when I do clone a profile.
I always check the contribution notes to see where the data I am cloning was taken from and I document this information.
I also include the UPC or EAN numbers of the cloned profile so that the community can check that profile.
So, my notes would be something like "Cast and Crew copied from the same film in the invelos database UPC 000000-000000. Documentation notes this data came directly from the DVD credits."
I often update several dozen DVDs at a time adding/correcting data as needed. When I do these updates I am not going to take the time to go through all the credits unless I actually watch the movie.
Once I do get to seeing the movie, I do double check all the data for that DVD against the credits making additions or changes as applicable.
Eventually, the database will become more and more accurate as the community will eventually get around to double checking the DVD credits and changing or updating as needed. |
| Registered: June 15, 2012 | Posts: 428 |
| Posted: | | | | Ok, I am not explaining myself clearly. Take a look at the poll results in this topic, and the subject is about why people aren't using the database.
Cloning is not supposed to be allowed, re-releases are not supposed to be allowed, and yet this is supposed to be a DVD/Blu-Ray database. A database which holds information with a specific id - UPC numbers. To me that means a database that will attempt to hold every release as long as it has a different UPC. However most of the topics in all the forums and most of the problems relate to movie specific issues. I mean, really, if there are 100 different UPC specific of a particular movie because of different countries, editions, time scale etc then the database should strive to list all of these. It shouldn't be limiting things because of cast members, or this ones got a different cover on the box etc. As long as the UPC is unique it should be allowed.
And as such any information that can be deemed "constant" between those dvd/blu-ray's should be presented in such a manner so that each entry has that same information.
Now I can understand Addicted2DVD's point that some "copies" could have different information due to locale, extra disks or some other reason, but couldn't this also be supplemental to the database.
I suppose what I am really trying to say is that there should be like a movie database within the DVDProfiler database that the movie information is taken from and then particular UPC entries can be applied to that. Also if there are certain changes for some reason then there are supplemental additions to the movie entry.
The benefit I see from this is that everyone who is saying something about cast names, studios etc will be adding to a central entry and thus there's more chance the movie entry for all UPC's is correct. The way it is now, if an entry is corrected or submitted perfect then it's only that one entry out of those 100 UPC's for that release.
Then I come along - being a new user - and discover my copy is the 101st UPC for this movie, so I am subjected to either manually entering every piece of information myself or taking pot luck that the existing entry I decide to clone is that 1 in a 100 with the correct info... And once I do this I sit here and wonder if I should contribute. Obviously the answer is going to be No, because I can't guarantee that my "clone" has all the correct info - it doesn't matter that those other 99 already listed also don't have the correct info.
There are enough checks on the system with voting and people who screen the contribution to make a movie's information practically 100% correct. Especially if they only have to worry about 1 entry for that movie, not 100 plus the possible extra 1 if I di decide to contribute my copy. | | | Last edited: by Parsec |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 13,203 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Parsec: Quote: Cloning is not supposed to be allowed, re-releases are not supposed to be allowed, and yet this is supposed to be a DVD/Blu-Ray database. A database which holds information with a specific id - UPC numbers. To me that means a database that will attempt to hold every release as long as it has a different UPC. However most of the topics in all the forums and most of the problems relate to movie specific issues. I mean, really, if there are 100 different UPC specific of a particular movie because of different countries, editions, time scale etc then the database should strive to list all of these. It shouldn't be limiting things because of cast members, or this ones got a different cover on the box etc. As long as the UPC is unique it should be allowed. Maybe I am misunderstanding you but, with the exception of re-releases using the same UPC, all of this is already allowed. Quote: And as such any information that can be deemed "constant" between those dvd/blu-ray's should be presented in such a manner so that each entry has that same information. This isn't the first time this has been brought up. I am guessing, since Ken has never commented on it, that it might not be possible with the db engine he is using. It may also be that Ken didn't want to create another movie database as there is already one that does it fairly well. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever. There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom. Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand. The Centauri learned this lesson once. We will teach it to them again. Though it take a thousand years, we will be free. - Citizen G'Kar | | | Last edited: by TheMadMartian |
| Registered: May 29, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 3,475 |
| Posted: | | | | Parec,
You are mistaken on a couple of points.
First, cloning is allowed, the owner of the program has said so.
Secondly, wiith the exception of cover scans, re-releases are also allowed.
As far as some of your other points I think the problem is you are looking at the data from film and not a DVD point of view.
This has been discussed many times before and the problem is that this database was developed specifically with the DVD in mind.
The focus of profiler is DVD specific and contributions are made based on that and not the movie per say. This is why things can vary from locality, by UPC, editions etc.
Some feel this makes the contribution process more difficult. Others argue that it makes contributing easier because you just take the data from the DVD.
Because invelos is DVD specific, and not film specific, the database can not have every entry contain the same information.
I don't know if invelos will ever have a movie database within the DVD database. I do know that it, or something like it, has been asked for many times over the years without success. |
| Registered: June 15, 2012 | Posts: 428 |
| Posted: | | | | Well thank you all for your comments, I am still learning. I do know you can get away with cloned information, because i did do a submission that somehow got accepted (I was shocked at the time that it got through - It's actually got 1 mistake in it and I don't know how to fix it) But I still get discrepancies that I can't make sense of with some DVD's, but discussing these would be straying from the topic, so I'll leave it at that. |
| Registered: March 19, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 6,018 |
| Posted: | | | | There is nothing wrong with cloning, as long as contributors VERIFY that the data they are submitting matches the specific release for which they are submitting the information. Cloning is merely an easy way to obtain a good starting position for the creation of a release-specific profile. Nothing more, nothing less. And then it's just a question of picking a complete profile to clone. When I'm looking for one, I go and check profiles in the bigger localities (US, UK) first, because there the chances of finding a complete profile are best. Occasionally I have to turn to other localities (e.g. Germany, NL, one of the Nordic countries) to find the best profile to clone. | | | Last edited: by dee1959jay |
| Registered: May 29, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 3,475 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting dee1959jay: Quote: There is nothing wrong with cloning, as long as contributors VERIFY that the data they are submitting matches the specific release for which they are submitting the information.... Not according to invelos: Quoting Ken Cole: Quote: If you are contributing to a profile that you don't own, our only requirement is that the notes submitted accurately reflect the source of the data, and state the specific profile used as the source. I know that this upsets some people because mistakes can happen and this might be true. Ken even accepts that and makes allowances for them when they are part of a greater contribution. If there are any mistakes these can be corrected the next time someone gets around to watching the movie. | | | Last edited: by Kathy |
| Registered: March 15, 2007 | Posts: 1,982 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Kathy: Quote: Ken even accepts that. and it's an excuse for lazyness... As you know Kathy I do all my profiles from scratch as I'm one of those who cut himself completly from the DVDP database a long time ago. Doing a good job to get everything right the first time isn't that long (less than one hour cover scan included). Nothing garantee that two DVDs from the same exact movie are exactly the same (even less when the profile use is one who was submited or transfered from the old database in 2007). But as we know the DVDP database isn't more reliable than any other ones... Kathy I use your post to reply but nothing I wrote is about you |
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Invelos Forums->General: Website Discussion |
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