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  Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion Page: 1... 4 5 6 7 8 ...11  Previous   Next
Isn't contribution system going in a wrong way? (Locked)
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DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorCyrille
User since: 12/15/2003
Registered: March 13, 2007
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Quoting Kevin Coed:
Quote:
I noticed a discernible difference when the voting system came in mainly.


Maybe but there are still contribution where I vote NO and explain the reason (I have made a post about this problem) but the contribution was still accepted... so sometime we can ask why there is a vote system if we don't follow it...
Regards
Cyrille
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorTracer
Registered: March 13, 2007
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Voting No on a contribution is doesn't mean it still won't get accepted.  The screener may disagree with you or the screener may have made a mistake.
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorsurfeur51
Since July 3, 2003
Registered: March 29, 2007
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France Posts: 4,479
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Quoting pdf256:
Quote:


I have submitted more then 180 new profiles in the last two and a half years, plus I don't know how many updates to other people profiles with almost all of them approved. If I can do it, so can you.

pdf


I have submitted nearly 400 profiles in the past three months, and all were accepted but two. So, you are right, I can do it.

That is not the problem I spoke of. It is tiring to repeat many times the same things as very few really read was is written.

The problem is that since about ten days, contribution are refused if you do not mention the source of the cast list. I wrote that this will prevent many people to contribute, and, in my case, I'm not ready to make screen caps as Skip suggested to prove that an uncredited actor is really in the movie.

Another thing, for people who do not speak english, it is quite impossible to understand anything in the horrible mess that is the contribution forum. I understand english quite well,but really it's a pain to follow what must be done (euhh, sorry, everything Skip and Rifter say MUST be done ).

The system is made complicated because there is a problem with the english zone1 profiles. There is no problem with french zone 2 profiles, and probably many profiles in countries that do not house ayatollahs.
Images from movies
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorLDH
Registered: March 13, 2007
Posts: 275
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Quoting skipnet50:
Quote:
That is how you do it, Dr. On top of that once you lock a title; when you upload the Invelos server will create a clone of your data minus artwork.

Skip



If i remember correctly, Ken said that you don't have to lock you profiles any more that it will create what you have, only the images are still whats in the online databbase.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorKevin
Registered March 22, 2001
Registered: March 13, 2007
Posts: 609
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Quoting surfeur51:
Quote:

The problem is that since about ten days, contribution are refused if you do not mention the source of the cast list. I wrote that this will prevent many people to contribute, and, in my case, I'm not ready to make screen caps as Skip suggested to prove that an uncredited actor is really in the movie.

Nothing has really changed since then. You have always had to provide documentation for anything you submit or change. The only difference is that it is being enforced more strictly, because of abuse.
Quote:

Another thing, for people who do not speak english, it is quite impossible to understand anything in the horrible mess that is the contribution forum. I understand english quite well,but really it's a pain to follow what must be done (euhh, sorry, everything Skip and Rifter say MUST be done ).

The system is made complicated because there is a problem with the english zone1 profiles. There is no problem with french zone 2 profiles, and probably many profiles in countries that do not house ayatollahs.

Ah. I understand everything now. It's Ken's fault for being an American.

Ken, you should be ashamed of yourself, living here. Your parents and ancestors must share this blame as well.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorpdf256
PC, iOS and Android
Registered: March 13, 2007
United States Posts: 810
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Quoting surfeur51:
Quote:
Quoting pdf256:
Quote:


I have submitted more then 180 new profiles in the last two and a half years, plus I don't know how many updates to other people profiles with almost all of them approved. If I can do it, so can you.

pdf


I have submitted nearly 400 profiles in the past three months, and all were accepted but two. So, you are right, I can do it.

That is not the problem I spoke of. It is tiring to repeat many times the same things as very few really read was is written.

The problem is that since about ten days, contribution are refused if you do not mention the source of the cast list. I wrote that this will prevent many people to contribute, and, in my case, I'm not ready to make screen caps as Skip suggested to prove that an uncredited actor is really in the movie.

What is so hard about listing your source?
If you don't want to prove that an 'uncredited' actor is in the film, leave them out.
Once again, if your source for the data is a good one (the dvd itself), what is so hard about saying so?
Now if the real problem is that you just want to add IMDb data, that is a different kettle of fish.

Quote:
Another thing, for people who do not speak english, it is quite impossible to understand anything in the horrible mess that is the contribution forum. I understand english quite well,but really it's a pain to follow what must be done (euhh, sorry, everything Skip and Rifter say MUST be done ).

If the film is not in English, the chances of Skip or Rifter voting on it are very slim.

Quote:
The system is made complicated because there is a problem with the english zone1 profiles. There is no problem with french zone 2 profiles, and probably many profiles in countries that do not house ayatollahs.

If you read back through the old IVS forums you will see that some of the reasons that we have the current rules and voting system had to do with wars about R2 Finish profiles!
Paul Francis
San Juan Capistrano, CA, USA
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorKevin Coed
Registered: March 14, 2007
United Kingdom Posts: 278
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Quoting Cyrille:
Quote:
Quoting Kevin Coed:
Quote:
I noticed a discernible difference when the voting system came in mainly.


Maybe but there are still contribution where I vote NO and explain the reason (I have made a post about this problem) but the contribution was still accepted... so sometime we can ask why there is a vote system if we don't follow it...


How many 'yes' votes were there?
Guns don't kill people. Hammers do.
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorCyrille
User since: 12/15/2003
Registered: March 13, 2007
Reputation: High Rating
Belgium Posts: 467
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Quoting Kevin Coed:
Quote:
Quoting Cyrille:
Quote:
Quoting Kevin Coed:
Quote:
I noticed a discernible difference when the voting system came in mainly.


Maybe but there are still contribution where I vote NO and explain the reason (I have made a post about this problem) but the contribution was still accepted... so sometime we can ask why there is a vote system if we don't follow it...


How many 'yes' votes were there?


0 because it was profiles from France without lot of interest I think. I admit screener can make mistake with the big amount of profiles they check each day but I have PM Ken about contributions of this user because he erases all my contributions of the series. He deleted some actors and crew contributed by movie's credits, and changed all the title : my title is for example "Mort sur le Nil" (Murder on the Nile) and he changed by "Hercule Poirot n°1 Mort sur le Nil" that is not on the cover and not in the credits... But the user seems to have understood and don't make contribution at least for Poirots' DVDs.
Regards
Cyrille
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Ken doesn't have time to respond to all PMs just resubmit the correct profile with contribution notes letting the screeners know that your restoring a profile from the previous contributor not following the rules.
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DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantDr. Killpatient
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Registered: May 19, 2007
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Quoting richierich:
Quote:
The only frustration I have, is when an image contribution is declined, despite there being up to a 20-1 yes vote.
As it is basically a subjective element of a profile, surely such a great majority should dictate that it is a preferable image?
But it appears the screener/autobot follows the 1 no vote.

Frustrated 

I had several of those as well.  I guess the reason is that while it looks better, it doesn't look "significantly better".
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorDariusKyrak
Fishcakes.. and why not?
Registered: March 23, 2007
United Kingdom Posts: 317
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Quoting pdf256:
Quote:
Why should the number of other people that own the DVD lower the bar on data quality?


I wasn't just talking about the data (although I was to some extent), but also the quality of the notes (e.g. the quality of the whole submission). For example, just today I submitted updates to several fields in this profile: 4-006408-823216. Most of these updates were for things that should have been populated from the profile creation, but were not. Honestly, I can't be bothered to provide detailed note about how I found most of the information (see next paragraph as well for more reason) and summarised it as "Updated lots of missing info directly from disc and case. Disc info confirmed using VSO Inspector".

I find the submission of notes useful as you can justify anything that is likely to cause confusion or debate. However, the thought of having to justify often obvious information seem both tedious, and more importantly insulting. A profile that I voted on today (013023-186194) gave three sources of evidence in the notes to show the country of origin. For this particular title, it's blindingly obvious what the CoO is and it seem silly that someone should have to justify it. It's like starting from the point of assuming the submitter is lying and has to prove their worth.

It's this need to justify myself to such a level of detail that puts me off. In region 1, this has less impact because there are umpteen other people who are willing to do that work if you don't, but the more obscure the title or smaller the locality, the greater the chance is that no-one else will do it (the profile I mention above was for a title released five years ago). It seems wrong to update perfectly good and 'lawful' information locally, but not submit it simply because someone refuses to believe you without proof (a little dramatic, but you get the idea).

Quote:
So add real notes, list your sources. If you had just spent 30 minutes entering the full cast from the film/DVD credits, the extra time to type "entered full cast from the film credits" is not much!


I wouln't have a problem if a one liner would do the job. It's where you're putting more effort into the notes than you were for the contribution that gets to me. Remember that Ken placed emphasis on credits, but the statement of strictness was not limited to simply the credits.

I'm in the category of contributors who will put in some effort, but not a great deal. I'm not against rules. I'm not against being required to supply notes. I just think that you have to accept that the more detail is asked for the fewer people will be willing to provide it. If we really are moving down the lines of justifying every part of every submission, then lets please have category specific notes (i.e. a notes field next to each check box on the submission screen). If not, then please have some faith in the voters ability to decide whether a submission is good enough - that's what they're for isn't it?
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DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantTouti
Registered: March 13, 2007
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Quoting surfeur51:
Quote:
The system is made complicated because there is a problem with the english zone1 profiles. There is no problem with french zone 2 profiles, and probably many profiles in countries that do not house ayatollahs.


Skip and Rifer don't run Invelos, they're not the ones who decided that source of information must be supplied and they don't accept or refuse profiles.  This was Ken's decision and if you have a problem with it I suggest you address the issue with him, not with 2 users who had nothing to do with this decision.

And you might want to change your attitude, these repeating insults in your latest posts are annoying and I for one am getting tired of it.

You brought up a point, some don't agree with you, fine, try to convince them or shut up and live with it but insults won't get you anywhere 
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DVD Profiler Unlimited Registrantgardibolt
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Registered: March 13, 2007
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Quoting Kevin:
Quote:
Quoting surfeur51:
Quote:

The problem is that since about ten days, contribution are refused if you do not mention the source of the cast list. I wrote that this will prevent many people to contribute, and, in my case, I'm not ready to make screen caps as Skip suggested to prove that an uncredited actor is really in the movie.

Nothing has really changed since then. You have always had to provide documentation for anything you submit or change. The only difference is that it is being enforced more strictly, because of abuse.
Quote:

Another thing, for people who do not speak english, it is quite impossible to understand anything in the horrible mess that is the contribution forum. I understand english quite well,but really it's a pain to follow what must be done (euhh, sorry, everything Skip and Rifter say MUST be done ).

The system is made complicated because there is a problem with the english zone1 profiles. There is no problem with french zone 2 profiles, and probably many profiles in countries that do not house ayatollahs.

Ah. I understand everything now. It's Ken's fault for being an American.

Ken, you should be ashamed of yourself, living here. Your parents and ancestors must share this blame as well.


Ken, please do some genealogical research so we know which of your ancestors we should shake our fingers at.




"This movie has warped my fragile little mind."
DVD Profiler Unlimited Registrantalinoe
Registered: May 15, 2007
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Quoting surfeur51:



The system is made complicated because there is a problem with the english zone1 profiles. There is no problem with french zone 2 profiles, and probably many profiles in countries that do not house ayatollahs.

First, sorry for my poor English.
I'm a rather new french contributor and I desagree with your point of view. There is also problems with french zone 2 profiles. Too many "basic" contributions (with only title and cover scan) were submitted. For me a new contribution without genres, studios, overview, disc-id, cast and crew, is not a contribution. Most of the contributors didn't explain their changes. How to know if you 've to vote yes or no, when you don't know the sources of the change.
I may admit I prefer the contribution system with the sources even for new contributions. May be I'm an ayatollah !!!
 Last edited: by alinoe
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorTelecine
Regd: January 22, 2001
Registered: March 14, 2007
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Quoting DariusKyrak:
Quote:
I think that this is being blown out of proportion. This thread is not about following the rules or not following the rules, it's about proportionate response. If you have a profile that is 'owned' by 1000 people, you might expect more updates and challenges to get the information right and the application of very strict rules becomes important. If, however, you have a profile that is 'owned' by only 10 people and possibly only two people who will ever contribute to it, then you need to be more realistic about the quality of information you're likely to get and the level of scrutiny you can apply. As has been said more than once, some information is better than none!

As for alternatives, I think the argument is that the 'new', hard-line is a change, and the alternative is simply to go back to what it was before. And what was before? The voting systems! If you have a well maintained profile that may expect 100 votes on a change, chances are that profile is going to adhere well to the rules because of the amount of scrutiny it is put under. If you have a less owned profile which may attract only three or four votes and only two or three changes in its lifetime (e.g. vast swathes of minority interest and non-R1 profiles), you tend to be less discerning.

My concern (and it would seem, many others) is that the submissions I make (which rarely contain more than a few words of contributions notes) will receive single-figure yes votes and no no votes, but will now be rejected where it wasn't in the past. I.e. that balance of credibility has moved further away from the voting systems and towards the nameless, faceless bots.

I think the argument is not to do with the detail or the strictness of the rules, but that their implementation in a given circumtance is best suited to a jury of the submision's peers.


I think that you make some very valid points in your post.

I have been a long time user of the product and remember very well the days before a voting system or rules when a lot a rubbish ended up being accepted. For example, I regularly had Region 4 profiles for Australia overwritten by ones from Brazil! We have come a long way indeed.

The release of Version 3 has rekindled my interest in contributing and I have been making regular contributions since it was launched, something that I had not done in a long time.

When I make a contribution however, I am lucky if I get more than a couple of votes and many of my contributions get no votes at all. There are about two or three individuals in my region who regularly vote and contribute the same type of films that I have. Many of these profiles require a lot of updating to get them to a reasonable level.

I try very hard to follow the rules and provide sources for what I contribute. That said, I unashamedely draw on profiles already contributed in other regions when I update these profiles. If I had to sit down and watch the film credits and type it all in, I would never get anywhere given the state of the current profiles and the number that need updating.

Users in Regions other than Regions 1 face an uphill battle going forward unless we get more contributors. Whilst this may not affect many of you who are not interested in films from outside of Region 1, for those of you that are, it will make the database poorer if we lose contributors from these other regions. I am sure that no one wants this to turn into Region 1 DVDProfiler.

Going forward, HD media with different region coding may help solve this problem but that will take some time. In the interim, the community needs to be aware that all regions are not on an equal footing.
 Last edited: by Telecine
Invelos Software, Inc. RepresentativeGerri Cole
Invelos Software
Registered: March 10, 2007
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Quoting AHels:
Quote:
Quoting richierich:
Quote:
The only frustration I have, is when an image contribution is declined, despite there being up to a 20-1 yes vote.
As it is basically a subjective element of a profile, surely such a great majority should dictate that it is a preferable image?
But it appears the screener/autobot follows the 1 no vote.

Frustrated 

I recently submitted higher quality coverscans for The 6th Day (5035822099036.4) which received 11 positive and 0 negative votes. Still the submission was declined for some reason.

Really frustrated



Keep in mind, it isn't just the number of votes. Some people vote yes on everything - who cares if it is the wrong UPC or the wrong language or there aren't sources... etc. You get the idea.

If you feel it was wrongly rejected, I encourage to send it back again with comments. Almost every time I seen one of those comments (something like "Recontribution, was declined last time with a 20:1 vote) I will PM you with why if I decline it again.

In particular with image contributions, we look for a distinctly significant improvement per the rules.

As to the sources rule, dont overthink it. We aren't looking for information that would stand up in court. If you got all the information from the DVD, put "All information from DVD". If you included cast and crew, I would specifically call that out. "All info from DVD including cast and crew." Simple, to the point notes are easier for you to write and easier for us to read.
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